Minutes of Zio-Nazi & PA Traitors (5)

Meeting Minutes

 

Jerusalem/Sheraton Plaza

18 February 2008

12:00 – 14:00

 

Attendants

 

Palestinian side:

•  Ahmad Qrei’ (Abu Ala’)
•  Dr. Saeb Erekat
•  Salah Ilayan

 

Israeli side:

•  Tzipi Livni
•  Udi Dekel
•  Tal Beker

 

 

Livni: I introduce to you Udi Dekel who has been recently appointed head of the negotiations department. He came here today to help us.

 

Tomorrow Prime Minister Olmert will meet with President Abu Mazen, and the specialized teams will meet on Wednesday with the participation of one person for each of the issue we have agreed on, namely, water, environment, economic relations, infrastructure, state-to-state relations, legal and prisoners’ issues – civil society and culture of peace.

 

This will be a symbolic meeting to give them our support and guidelines, but in the end we are the ones who decide.

 

The same person will also represent us in the legal issues and prisoners’ committee.

 

Abu Ala’: We do not care if the same person represents you or not but for us we will have two people, one for the legal issues and another for the prisoners’ issue because the issue of the prisoners is so important for us.

 

At the beginning we will have one person from each side and perhaps later they will need more people to help them.

 

Livni: In spite of the threats of Shas Party to withdraw from the government coalition, I declared that we will continue negotiations with the Palestinians and that it was agreed in Annapolis conference to discuss all issues.

 

Saeb: Your declarations indicate courage, integrity and sincerity.

 

Livni: What about if we declare after our meeting today that we will continue with the negotiations, that we are satisfied with the progress that has been achieved, and that the evidence for all this is that the specialized teams will convene on Wednesday? This will be an answer to the voices that claim that no progress has been achieved in the negotiations.

 

Abu Ala’: We can say that we are continuing the negotiations and that they are not easy because of the intricacy of the issues under discussion.

 

Livni: Will this raise the sensitivity of the members of the steering committee of the negotiations?

 

Abu Ala’: For us it will raise the sensitivity of the committee’s members.

 

Saeb: We declare that the negotiations continue without giving any details.

 

Dekel: The start of the work of specialized committees is a positive sign.

 

Livni: In order not to waste time, we say that in addition to the main issues, the specialized committees will start their meetings.

 

Saeb: Then you have to open the doors for unending questions from reporters. We just say that the peace process continues and that all issues are being negotiated.

 

Livni: I have no problem.

 

Saeb: But if Abu Ala’ said the water committee will convene, they will ask him about Jerusalem and he will have to answer. We are trying to protect the peace process. When we put our feet on the ground we can then talk about specialized committees.

 

Abu Ala’: We say we are negotiating all issues without naming them.

 

Saeb: At this stage the less that is said the better.

 

Livni: I thought of a way to work on the issue of borders. I want to share with you our needs and mention a number of criteria for negotiating the issue of borders.

 

Abu Ala’: Before the criteria there are terms of reference we have agreed on in all the negotiations we have conducted. The terms of reference are 1967 borders but the criteria are the modifications.

 

Tal: We did not say in any previous negotiations that we accept 1967 borders. What we have between us is 242 UN resolution.

 

Saeb: Did you accept roadmap plan or no?

 

Livni: We do not want a discussion that leads to frustration and confrontation. I do not wish to reach a deadlock before we start. I want you to review the maps and ask yourselves if they achieve what we agree on, your dream and our dream.

 

In the end we are talking about the creation of a Palestinian state not in Tel Aviv and not only in the Gaza Strip. We are talking rather about a state in the Gaza Strip and on most parts of the West Bank. Thus do not say that the terms of reference should be 1967 borders because I cannot accept this and I know your position toward 1967 borders.

 

Let us propose to you some criteria regarding borders as a springboard for discussion. I want you to understand our needs, not only to accept our criteria. Then we can return to the maps.

 

Abu Ala’: If we do not specify what we are talking about we will open the case for may possibilities. I will talk about Resolution 181 and you will ask angrily where we are heading. I will say to West Jerusalem and you will lose your temper.

 

We have to agree on the principle, and then we can talk about modifications. We have our own ideas and you have yours concerning modifications. We discuss them and agree on them.

 

To start with the maps is going to be difficult because maps determine the concept and therefore it is better to start otherwise.

 

Livni: Do you know why I cannot accept 1967 borders? Because I want a feasible agreement that can be implemented.

 

Abu Ala’: There are natural things on the ground and others artificial. We cannot say, for example, that due to the existence of an artificial Israeli demography in Jericho then Jericho must be annexed. If we agree on the principle of borders it will be easier for us to reach an agreement. This is better than just talking about the existence of Israelis in Hebron, Jericho, Jerusalem and its outskirts.

 

Livni: I can understand your position with regard to 1967 borders but I cannot accept it.

 

Abu Ala’: Then 1949 armistice line.

 

Livni: I asked someone about the difference between 1967 borders and 1949 armistice line and he told me there is no difference.

 

Dekel: There are differences that are difficult to specify. It is better to talk about the future and not the past.

 

Livni: This is what I wanted to say. In the end you need borders that you accept and live with.

 

Dekel: There are two guidelines for us in the criteria for borders: (1) recognition of secure borders, and (2) the situation and the reality on the ground. We want borders that can protect Israel and its inhabitants; borders that take into account the topographical reality.

 

Livni: We are not talking here about a specific place regarding the topographical reality.

 

Dekel: The largest number of settlers is under Israeli sovereignty and the least number of Palestinians are behind the borders on the Israeli side.

 

Abu Ala’: You mean the wall.

 

Dekel: I did not talk about the wall.

 

Livni: It seems that Abu Ala’ knows the criteria that the Higher Israeli Court has put regarding the route of the wall. Some parts of the route of the wall are not sacred.

 

We have to create a reality in which people can have a normal life, and here I mean both Palestinians and Israelis. We should minimize friction as much as possible.

 

Dekel: Water and the holy places: what will be their situation when we talk about the borders. We will demand sovereignty over them.

 

Saeb: This means that wherever there is a water basin the route of the wall takes into account the annexation of the land in which the water basin lies.

 

Livni: I recall what Abu Ala’ said in the first meeting: “We want 1967 borders, what is above them and what is underneath them.”

 

Abu Ala’: That was mere talk, and of course what is above and underneath the land.

 

Livni: The way I know you, it was not mere talk. There are issues for swap. For example, if you say you want the land where there is a water basin and I find that the opinion of water experts contradicts that then I will not object to it.

 

Tal: We should balance between criteria on issues that do not contradict each other.

 

Dekel: We have to discuss borders regime.

 

Livni: Another example for swap of issues is the issue of security in the Jordan Valley.

 

Dekel: Antiquities are one of the criteria.

 

Saeb: Borders regime to discuss free trade system or customs federation.

 

Livni: We can start negotiating the issue of crossings in a separate track. As for security, taking of land can be compensated if our security demands are met.

 

Saeb: What about connection with the Gaza Strip?

 

Livni: We started discussing the West Bank and as long as you talk about 1867 borders there will be no link between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. We understand the need for a safe passage but it will affect contiguity in Israel and Israeli sovereignty. Besides, the safe passage has to fulfill our security needs.

 

Abu Ala’: The passage has to be discussed.

 

Livni: I received a message just now about Joseph’s Tomb to put to you and I have no idea about its background.

 

Saeb: One civilian is building a three-storey building adjacent to Joseph’s Tomb and the Israeli side considers this a security threat.

 

Livni: I wish you will give attention to this issue.

 

Abu Ala’: I want to propose that the basis is that 1967 borders are the borders. We agreed to modify them and we are committed to this. The area of land for swap and its location should be discussed.

 

We want an independent state that is capable of absorbing most Palestinians here and in the Diaspora; a viable state for future generations with an adequate area to fulfill the needs of its citizens. This state must be independent out-and-out and must have full sovereignty over its land and natural resources. There are also other issues which we will talk about in future sessions. We want an independent sovereign state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital.

 

Livni: You mean 1967 borders, but some talk about 1967 borders plus. For instance, the safe passage with the Gaza Strip is 1967 plus.

 

Saeb: The passage was agreed on in Olso.

 

Tal: But there was no reference to 1967.

 

Saeb: There was enough reference to lead to the implementation of UN Security Council Resolutions 242 & 338.

 

Livni: A viable state is an internal matter.

 

Abu Ala’: I am not talking about economic viability but about a land in which I will establish my state.

 

Livni: Settlement blocs will not affect the viability of the state.

 

Abu Ala’: But they will. Let us take the example of Ma’ale Adomim settlement. Its continued existence will affect the life of 100,000 Palestinian civilians living in the area where they cannot expand. The situation in Giv’at settlement is similar. A state whose parts are connected with tunnels and bridges is not a viable state.

 

Dekel: The solution is difficult and that is why we have to be creative.

 

Livni: God gave us bad cards to play with.

 

Abu Ala’: Ariel settlement goes inside the bowels of the West Bank. We are ready to discuss your security needs without exaggeration and without dictates. Security is not an early alert station here or there, but it is the manner in which we cooperate together for the realization of security both for you and us.

 

Livni: Egypt in all her greatness accepted a peace treaty with some restrictions.

 

Saeb: We know the realities on the ground, but there is something called negotiation cares, like the father who sacrifices his liver to save his son. We are not discussing the manner by which to preserve your interests, but the manner whereby we can reconcile between your and our interests.

 

You want to transfer water from our water basins to Israel, and you say that the wall and settlements are a reality on the ground; that is keeping what you created on the ground as it is and then you want us to see what is best for you. What God created is destiny but what you created on the ground is not destiny and we do not have to live with it.

 

Abu Ala’ suggested two points to start with: 1967 borders and modifications on the borders. But your criteria will smother us, and you also forgot the psychological factor in these criteria.

 

Abu Mazen and Abu Ala’ want to reach an agreement and thus I do not advise you to talk about these criteria in this flowery language of yours. I hope the whole concept would divert to suit our interests.

 

Livni: You are putting words in my mouth. I participated in reaching previous agreements, and what worried me was not the discussion of issues or reaching an agreement but the ability to implement agreements.

 

Saeb: Therefore we are waiting for the implementation of what has been agreed upon in Annapolis.

 

Livni: This is what we are doing. I do not want an agreement for the shelf without implementation. After what Dekel has said you are free; you can look at the empty part of the glass.

 

Abu Ala’: When we talk about borders we talk about the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and Jerusalem.

 

Livni: When we talk about settlement blocs we talk about the smaller part of the West Bank. You will say that they affect your life. I said that water could be either land or fair arrangements about it.

 

I said the route of the wall is not sacred. I asked you to understand our criteria and not to accept them.

 

Saeb talked about history and psychological association. I have passed that.

 

I understand Abu Ala’ when he talks about 1967 borders but I not am saying that accept them. In the end, I did not ask you to accept these criteria, but I want to sit with you and have a confidential agenda.

 

Saeb: We have to know how to reconcile our interests.

 

Livni: You can say that you hate settlements blocs and this is a crime against humanity and is opposed to international legitimacy. In the end it is up to you to make up your mind.

 

Let us talk about the implementation of the agreement. We evacuated 7000 settlers from the Gaza Strip.

 

Abu Ala’: You evacuated 4 million Palestinians.

 

Livni: We did not expel them all. The question is: Can Israel remove the settlements in the West Bank or no? You can say that this is not your business.

 

Abu Ala’: What will you do with the settlers in the Golan Heights? Why did you remove all the settlements when you reached a peace agreement with Egypt? And this is what will happen with Syria.

 

Livni: Sincerely, the area of the West Bank is small. We can give you the West Bank without any link with Gaza.

 

Abu Ala’: How will we reach Gaza? Are we going to fly there?

 

Livni: You are angels that have wings. Instead of using the term “settlement blocs” to call settlements we can use Clinton’s term “Israeli civil population centers.”

 

Abu Ala’: I suggest moving ahead in the issue of borders; two persons from each side. On our side we will have Dr. Jad Ishak and Dr. Samih al-Abed.

 

Livni: From our side we will have Udi Dekel and Dani Terza.

 

Abu Ala’: I suggest that the specialized committees meet at 12 noon on Sunday instead of Wednesday